Curse

Tyla · Dec 04, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

The only thing that really makes Ritualists stand out in PvP is the runes and the profession setup. Little to no attribution is required for Rend or Enfeeble, and Dash is the best running skill you can use. Coupled with powerful party heals and unstrippable Guardians with decently strong heals aswell as decent offensive options all in the same bar, you could say that is what's keeping Ritualists around. And put it this way, what kind of idiot would run an A/Rt Flagrunner over the more powerful Rt/A one?

Really, the only thing keeping them around is profession setups.

Shadowmere · Dec 04, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

upon further consideration, spawning power, although at first glance of what it does seems underpowered, it really isnt. with the increase of weapon spell durations and summoned creatures health bonuses, this is a very powerful tool. keep in mind that weapon spells cannot be removed, only interrupted on cast. VERY powerful. wep of warding saw much rework after the power was shown. the increase in summons health is pretty nice also. rits have both offensive and defensive skills in their arsenal. they are very versatile. item spells, though they deprive one of the use of wep mods/bonuses, are still carried no? this means the benefit outweighs the loss, correct? plus with the hidden health/energy of some wep sets, you can save yourself grief later.

although spawning power seems to be of little significance, the 'weakness' is what keeps the game balance. because rits are so versatile and can do so many things, any tweak could drastically shift the balance of the game. rits can do many things well, but nothing exceptional. therefore spawning needs to stay 'weak.'

While I agree that at current spawning does have some useful bonuses, namely the weapon spell duration which is very useful because as you've said weapon spells are very powerful due to their unstrippable nature.

However the summoned creature health bonus is rather pathetic. This is due in large part to the fact that most of the summoned creatures that should be gaining the biggest benefit from this are nerfed to the point of unusable (namely spirits that sac health when their effect is triggered).

For the sake of argument lets say you have 16 spawning and 15 communing and use [displacement]

now this spirit will be level 10 and with that rank of spawning power it will have 410 health. In it's current state the spirit sacs 60 health each time it blocks for a party member. That's a total of 7 blocks the spirit can make before it dies not counting any damage the spirit may itself take during it's brief lifespan.

Even with high spawning these sacing defensive (or in the case of [wanderlust] offensive) spirits are simply far to much trouble for their worth.

On the flipside necromancer minions gain a much better effect from the increased health, however giving the minions increased health is a rather moot point since you won't be able to have as many minions (meaning they won't be able to form as strong of a "minion wall") and they will be of a lower level than a necro's, dealing less damage and taking more from level based sources. The main use of a Ritualist and Minions has been minion bombing, which is both unwieldy and also dosen't gain a benefit from increased minion health. Again rendering spawning's bonus rather useless.

I think both spirits and Spawning power needs serious work.

For the spirits give them increased either health, armor or both additionally defensive spirits need some SERIOUS buffs (my math with displacement illustrates just how horrid they've gotten).

For spawning power specifically i think it should provide a bonus for all 3 of the ritualists unique abilities. I like the idea of reducing ritual casting time (2-5 seconds for each spirit makes spirit spamming horrendously slow even if you can bring spirits wtih you in pve), I'd say leave the weapon spell lengthening effect and provide a bonus for holding an item as well, perhaps increased energy (to offset the lack of a weapon, additionally it would make [mighty was vorizun] and [empowerment] provide useful bonuses instead of just offsetting a negative)

I'm not too keen on the energy ideas for spawning, as rits have always had very useful energy management skills the cost of rituals and spells has never really been an issue as much as the actual affect of said rituals and the speed at which they can be cast.

just my thoughts on the situation.

spirit of defeat · Dec 04, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

On the flipside necromancer minions gain a much better effect from the increased health, however giving the minions increased health is a rather moot point since you won't be able to have as many minions (meaning they won't be able to form as strong of a "minion wall") and they will be of a lower level than a necro's, dealing less damage and taking more from level based sources. The main use of a Ritualist and Minions has been minion bombing, which is both unwieldy and also dosen't gain a benefit from increased minion health. Again rendering spawning's bonus rather useless.

The only reason to use minion's on a RT is in combo with [boon of creation][Spirit's Gift][Explosive Growth].
Increase armor level with SP will help that.
The multi spirit idea couldn't solve this.

Quote:

For the spirits give them increased either health, armor or both additionally defensive spirits need some SERIOUS buffs (my math with displacement illustrates just how horrid they've gotten).

I'm in for armor level, or spirit level. Which will increase both armor and health.

Quote:

I'm not too keen on the energy ideas for spawning, as rits have always had very useful energy management skills the cost of rituals and spells has never really been an issue as much as the actual affect of said rituals and the speed at which they can be cast.

It could work, but it would result in nerfs for [boon of creation][Attuned Was Songkai] and more.

I really like the multi spirit idea, but i'm not sure how to work it out.
3x[pain] ok but what about [Recuperation]+[ritual lord] 6hp regen?
or [life]+[ritual lord] 120 hp each 10 sec?

And what if you have 2 rit's in a party?
RT-a can have 3 copies
RT-b can have 1 copy
What would happen here? 4x same spirit?

upier · Dec 04, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

I really like the multi spirit idea, but i'm not sure how to work it out.
3x[pain] ok but what about [Recuperation]+[ritual lord] 6hp regen?
or [life]+[ritual lord] 120 hp each 10 sec?

And what if you have 2 rit's in a party?
RT-a can have 3 copies
RT-b can have 1 copy
What would happen here? 4x same spirit?

Just add a "The party can only have one spirit of this kind active within spirit range." to the problematic spirits' descriptions.
And in PvP - this can be added to all spirits' descriptions.

EDIT:
Ohh, this just hit me!
"For each rank in spawning power you gain the ability to control an additional binding ritual and for each 2 ranks in spawning you gain the ability to control an additional concurrent binding ritual."
Hopefully that made sense - if it didn't it means the following:
1. For each rank in SP you gain the ability to have one spirit under your control. This means that players with 0 in SP can only have ONE (I think one would be much better then 0 since we don't want to completely limit the spirit use to ritualists only) binding ritual on the playing field. This means that a secondary ritualist can only control ONE spirit - regardless of how many they bring e.g. a necro will only be able to use Recovery but not a second spirit (Life for instance) at the SAME TIME! A nerf to spirit use without an investment into SP. Why should the necros have all the fun?

2. At the same time - for each 2 ranks in SP - the player gains the ability to control a copy of a spirit they have (unless the spirit can only exist in one version - as stated above).

This then means:
A player with 10 in SP is able to run around with 11 spirits.
BUT since you are limited by the second rule - this means you can only have 5 spirits of the same kind - e.g. 5 Pains. To fill up the number of allowed spirits (in this case 11) one must bring additional spirits. So - for example - 5 Pains and 5 Bloodsongs (if one is able to summon them all before the first one dies).
This would force the player to consider the trade-off - does he bring more spirits and run around with a max number of spirits or will he bring only one or two spirits and possibly not even achieve the max number of spirits he can run around with (because of the recharge of the spirits).

Phantom Flux · Dec 04, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I'm in for the multiple spirits idea. I mean, why not?

In PvP, spirits die or are just pwnd in few seconds by AoE.

In PvE, it could mean actually using a Ritualist to prepare a nice bombardment of mobs before luring them. Of course, in both pvp and pve it's ritualist and pve-only spirits. Having 5 Frozen Soils would be... strange. Or 5 Lifes. Also, this would buff some of the under-used elites like Spirit Channeling or Clamor of Souls.

Or just the -energy for 0, 4, 8, 12 and 16 spawning power.

That's why you make sure all spirit spammers on the team equip different types other wise having the same spirits makes em useless.

placebo overdose · Dec 04, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Just add a "The party can only have one spirit of this kind active within spirit range." to the problematic spirits' descriptions.
And in PvP - this can be added to all spirits' descriptions.

EDIT:
Ohh, this just hit me!
"For each rank in spawning power you gain the ability to control an additional binding ritual and for each 2 ranks in spawning you gain the ability to control an additional concurrent binding ritual."
Hopefully that made sense - if it didn't it means the following:
1. For each rank in SP you gain the ability to have one spirit under your control. This means that players with 0 in SP can only have ONE (I think one would be much better then 0 since we don't want to completely limit the spirit use to ritualists only) binding ritual on the playing field. This means that a secondary ritualist can only control ONE spirit - regardless of how many they bring e.g. a necro will only be able to use Recovery but not a second spirit (Life for instance) at the SAME TIME! A nerf to spirit use without an investment into SP. Why should the necros have all the fun?

2. At the same time - for each 2 ranks in SP - the player gains the ability to control a copy of a spirit they have (unless the spirit can only exist in one version - as stated above).

This then means:
A player with 10 in SP is able to run around with 11 spirits.
BUT since you are limited by the second rule - this means you can only have 5 spirits of the same kind - e.g. 5 Pains. To fill up the number of allowed spirits (in this case 11) one must bring additional spirits. So - for example - 5 Pains and 5 Bloodsongs (if one is able to summon them all before the first one dies).
This would force the player to consider the trade-off - does he bring more spirits and run around with a max number of spirits or will he bring only one or two spirits and possibly not even achieve the max number of spirits he can run around with (because of the recharge of the spirits).

of course this would disclude ranger spirits i hope

Lady Lozza · Dec 05, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

I can't see any reason for "discluding" ranger spirits... Presumably the effect is applied only once in the area the spirit covers. So even if there are multiple EoE you only take the damage once. Just like two winters wouldn't cause double cold damage. The difference with ritualist spirits is that they directly interact with the players rather than creating and environmental effect.

"Including" ranger spirits in such a way would increase the usefulness and cross-professional use of the ritualist.

jaximus · Dec 05, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

as shadowmere mentioned, displacement is a very powerful tool. would you really want this skill maintainable for longer than it lasts in the current state? certain skills make displacement more useful (rit lord, wep of quickening, reclaim essence, soul twisting) all are elite because displacement can be that powerful. therefore i dont believe that balancing the primary attribute around that one skill is a meaningful point. as for wanderlust, kds are powerful also.

Abedeus · Dec 05, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

That's why you make sure all spirit spammers on the team equip different types other wise having the same spirits makes em useless.

I was talking about ONE person having 5 frozen soils or 5 lifes.

5 frozen soils - gimmicks in heaven, because they can just put 5 FS' and surround enemies, rendering their ressurections useless.

5 lifes = crapload of health. For 5 energy, you get 140 health if it survives the whole duration. And for 25 energy, you can get 5x140 health = 700. Nice, no spell can beat that.

And that's AoE.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 05, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

I do not know why I didn't see this thread when it was created. For those who don't want to read my opinions on already stated ideas, scroll to the bottom of my long winded post.

Anyways, reading through the thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sante_Kelm

Relative to Spirits:

1) Could have a further impact on Spirit level (armor and crit hit calculations).
2) Could further increase Spirit health.
3) Could give energy after creating a Spirit.
4) Could affect casting/recharge time.

I agree with 1,2 and 4. 3 not so much because of [Boon of Creation] would give waaay to much energy with that. However, Ritualists do need better energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sante_Kelm

Relative to Item Spells:

1) Increase "holding" duration.
2) Increase "dropping" effect.
3) Receive energy after creating an item.
4) Increase max energy while holding an item.

1 and 2 have to be limited to specific item spells. Some item spells have long enough durations and can be maintained, and some item spells have strong enough dropping effects. 3 would be a good energy management for Ritualists, perhaps link that to Spawning Power (gives energy same proportion as Critical Strikes for Assassins). 4 is good as well as you're stuck with whatever energy the item and your armor gives you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sante_Kelm

Relative to Weapon Spells:

1) Receive energy after casting an weapon spell.
2) Receive energy after a weapon spell ends.

2, no because the only real way to make that occur is giving the one the weapon spell is casted on energy. 2, only if the above forms of energy management you proposed are not affected. Weapon Spells are good enough imo, what is needed is a way to strip them (as few ways as it is to give cracked armor).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sante_Kelm

What if Spawning Power gave an extra x pip(s) of energy regen while creating spirits?

I think it's safe to say that Spawning Power may be the worst primary in Guild Wars. Even Fast Casting has useful applications in PvP. That being said, I'm wondering if Spawing Power skills would be widely used even if the inherent bonus was augmented.

While creating spirits is unneeded because the more common spirits used cost 5 energy which is already regained. Spawning Power does need a boost, that is point blank obvious. And I go with giving energy management to Spawning Power in the form I said above. That is, having a 0...2...3 scale like the Assassin's Critical Strikes for created Item Spells. As they are not spammed (usually) and having it scaled would prevent secondary abuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by centur

Imo following good ideas for carefully balancing:

1. Add some mana or more defence (not +10 insignia, but at least +20, we loosing shield with urn) while holding an item (depending on spawning power attribute or nor)

2. Small mana gaining while create or drop urn - will help using offensive urns like "Cruel was" and "Grasping was"

3. Rebalance spirits that they benefit more (or suffer less damage) from primary attribute.

4. Add bonuses for "casting weapon spell while holding an item", e.x. - gain 1 mana for each 8 points in SP - this will fit ritualist role very well but this can add a lot of misusing.

5. Maybe add soul reaping effect for spirits dying, because Rits close to Necros by their nature.

6. And add a Hex for spirit attacks targeting =))) so we can focus spirit fire on some dangerous enemy, not on random pets running around

1. Nah, if you want armor while holding an item, use [Mighty Was Vorizun] or better yet [Protective Was Kaolai], or one of the health adding item spells.

2. Agreed for creating, with the scale I mentioned above. I don't agree with upon dropping, unless it's within the spell's effect.

3. Why link that to the primary? Even with 13 Spawning power and a lvl 7 spirit, it can die a couple good hits if not healed.

4. Ehh, I see issues with spammable weapon spells like Weapon of Warding with a perma holding item. But nothing bad.

5. With spirits limited to 1 per type up at a time, I see nothing wrong with this. Just make sure it's limited only to Binding Ritual Spirits, no Nature Spirits or Ghosts.

6. Pointless imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bargaw

About spawning power, i have few ideas:
#1 - bonus energy/health regen for about 15s after summoning creature
#2 - energy/health GAIN after summoning creature
#3 - energy gain after casting weapon spell
#4 - health/armor/energy/hct/hsr/whatever bonus for holding ashes

1) no, we have Boon of Creation, we don't need a non-skill ability that does a way too similar thing. 2) Again, we have Boon of Creation, and this does the SAME thing. 3) Will be abused with spammable weapon spells. 4) No. Some item spells do that, it will just make them imbalanced then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

upon further consideration, spawning power, although at first glance of what it does seems underpowered, it really isnt. with the increase of weapon spell durations and summoned creatures health bonuses, this is a very powerful tool. keep in mind that weapon spells cannot be removed, only interrupted on cast. VERY powerful. wep of warding saw much rework after the power was shown. the increase in summons health is pretty nice also. rits have both offensive and defensive skills in their arsenal. they are very versatile. item spells, though they deprive one of the use of wep mods/bonuses, are still carried no? this means the benefit outweighs the loss, correct? plus with the hidden health/energy of some wep sets, you can save yourself grief later.

although spawning power seems to be of little significance, the 'weakness' is what keeps the game balance. because rits are so versatile and can do so many things, any tweak could drastically shift the balance of the game. rits can do many things well, but nothing exceptional. therefore spawning needs to stay 'weak.'

While the Weapon Spell is quite fine, Spirits are still underpowered, but not by as much as people make it sound. And the Ritualist profession as a whole needs a better energy management. A little energy boost is where the buff should look at. That or Item Spells.

IMO, Spirit levels should be increased, at least for the saccing spirits. This can be done through SP easily, change it from "has +x% more health" to "gains +0...1...3 more levels" (on a 0...4...12 scale).

Summary of long winded post:
I suggest/agree with the following propositions: (scaling is 0...4...8...13...18 with the attribute)
1) Receive energy when creating an Item Spell on a 0...1...2...3...4
2) Add +0...5...10...15...20 energy when holding an item.
3) Add 0...1...2...3...4 levels to summoned Spirits (used "spirits" to avoid misuse with minions *their levels are high enough in comparison* but gives ranger spirits the boost)
4) Reduce Spirit Casting Time by x%(same scaling as Weapon Spell length addition - 2% every rank)

spirit of defeat · Dec 05, 2008, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Just add a "The party can only have one spirit of this kind active within spirit range." to the problematic spirits' descriptions.
And in PvP - this can be added to all spirits' descriptions.

EDIT:
Ohh, this just hit me!
"For each rank in spawning power you gain the ability to control an additional binding ritual and for each 2 ranks in spawning you gain the ability to control an additional concurrent binding ritual."
Hopefully that made sense - if it didn't it means the following:
1. For each rank in SP you gain the ability to have one spirit under your control. This means that players with 0 in SP can only have ONE (I think one would be much better then 0 since we don't want to completely limit the spirit use to ritualists only) binding ritual on the playing field. This means that a secondary ritualist can only control ONE spirit - regardless of how many they bring e.g. a necro will only be able to use Recovery but not a second spirit (Life for instance) at the SAME TIME! A nerf to spirit use without an investment into SP. Why should the necros have all the fun?

2. At the same time - for each 2 ranks in SP - the player gains the ability to control a copy of a spirit they have (unless the spirit can only exist in one version - as stated above).

This then means:
A player with 10 in SP is able to run around with 11 spirits.
BUT since you are limited by the second rule - this means you can only have 5 spirits of the same kind - e.g. 5 Pains. To fill up the number of allowed spirits (in this case 11) one must bring additional spirits. So - for example - 5 Pains and 5 Bloodsongs (if one is able to summon them all before the first one dies).
This would force the player to consider the trade-off - does he bring more spirits and run around with a max number of spirits or will he bring only one or two spirits and possibly not even achieve the max number of spirits he can run around with (because of the recharge of the spirits).

I think it is a bad idea:
1) Why limit spirit use to Rit'A

it's just like adding max number of minions to soul reaping.
2) like I sayed before I like the copy idea but just limit the total number of spirit's to like 6-8 I've tried a build which used 5 spirit's and it was anoying to keep them up.
3) In your example: @14 spawn @10chan @10 communing @10 sunspear. Max 15 spirit's and 7 copies per spirit.
[[email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]][ritual [email protected]][summon spirits][painful [email protected]][boon of [email protected]]=very overpowered and a tad boring

upier · Dec 05, 2008, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

I think it is a bad idea:
1) Why limit spirit use to Rit'A

it's just like adding max number of minions to soul reaping.
2) like I sayed before I like the copy idea but just limit the total number of spirit's to like 6-8 I've tried a build which used 5 spirit's and it was anoying to keep them up.
3) In your example: @14 spawn @10chan @10 communing @10 sunspear. Max 15 spirit's and 7 copies per spirit.
[[email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]][ritual [email protected]][summon spirits][painful [email protected]][boon of [email protected]]=very overpowered and a tad boring

1. Why not?
Why is there an issue with ritualists actually being "ritual lords"?

2. / 3. Otherwise you get something like:
14 chan, 14 spawn
You get multiple Bloodsongs/Vampirisms, while still keeping all the goodies that the ritu offers now - SW, AR.
There needs to be a trade-off - just the way you have shown. You basically wasted your whole bar and you don't have WoW, nor AR, nor SW. Nor do you have points for AP thus eliminating PvE-only skills spammage.
Considering what a AP-channeling ritu can do right now - I don't find your build overpowered, unless going against one baddie at a time.

spirit of defeat · Dec 05, 2008, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

1. Why not?
Why is there an issue with ritualists actually being "ritual lords"?

2. / 3. Otherwise you get something like:
14 chan, 14 spawn
You get multiple Bloodsongs/Vampirisms, while still keeping all the goodies that the ritu offers now - SW, AR.
There needs to be a trade-off - just the way you have shown. You basically wasted your whole bar and you don't have WoW, nor AR, nor SW. Nor do you have points for AP thus eliminating PvE-only skills spammage.
Considering what a AP-channeling ritu can do right now - I don't find your build overpowered, unless going against one baddie at a time.

Having 15 spirit's which do round 20+16 damage per attack is not overpowered ??spirit's attack speed is about 2 sec so ((20+16)*15)/2=270 damage per second. Besides If you count my build has 7 skills so there is room for a splinter/AR.

And if you suggest other skills with it you won't a able to get up 15 spirit's your limit of 15 is almost impossible to have,the only way to reach it is with something similar to what I posted.

6-8 is more then enough.

upier · Dec 05, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

Having 15 spirit's which do round 20+16 damage per attack is not overpowered ??spirit's attack speed is about 2 sec so ((20+16)*15)/2=270 damage per second. Besides If you count my build has 7 skills so there is room for a splinter/AR.

And if you suggest other skills with it you won't a able to get up 15 spirit's your limit of 15 is almost impossible to have,the only way to reach it is with something similar to what I posted.

6-8 is more then enough.

And that was actually the point - you'd need to work really hard to achieve such a big number of spirits. That's pretty much all the ritu would be doing in that case.
And then compare that to a PvE-skills spammer - especially with the lackluster spirit AI and their fragility - it probably wouldn't end up being as obscene as you painted it out.

spirit of defeat · Dec 05, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that was actually the point - you'd need to work really hard to achieve such a big number of spirits. That's pretty much all the ritu would be doing in that case.
And then compare that to a PvE-skills spammer - especially with the lackluster spirit AI and their fragility - it probably wouldn't end up being as obscene as you painted it out.

It won't be hard to keep it up just boring, constantly casting 3 sec spirits.
precast boon+ritual lord -> spam spirit's -> engage battle summon spirits cast painful bond continue to spam spirit's repeat.
Just don't hope you have to walk far.

kostolomac · Dec 05, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Upier's idea is really nice , add a skill that decreases binding ritual activation and I will be very happy.
And another skill would be very nice : Throw Ashes. You throw them at an enemy or ally depending on the item spell so you don't have to walk to him. It would be a nice pve skill.

upier · Dec 05, 2008, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

It won't be hard to keep it up just boring, constantly casting 3 sec spirits.
precast boon+ritual lord -> spam spirit's -> engage battle summon spirits cast painful bond continue to spam spirit's repeat.
Just don't hope you have to walk far.

Of course.
Not hard - just time consuming. You'll pretty much have to spend each available second throwing your hands in the air raising spirits.
Which - tbh - is actually something I like. I get bored of killing things. So I have "guys" on my payroll to do that for me.

spirit of defeat · Dec 07, 2008, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Of course.
Not hard - just time consuming. You'll pretty much have to spend each available second throwing your hands in the air raising spirits.
Which - tbh - is actually something I like. I get bored of killing things. So I have "guys" on my payroll to do that for me.

Upier admitted he uses a farmbot, or his little brother...

But stil max of 3 copies per spirit is enough which could be linked to SP. And a max of 8 spirits in total. That wouldn't cripple rangers or other proffs to use spirits.
Or increase spirit level's
'for each 2 ranks of spawning power creatures you create (or animate) increases 1 level. And for each rank of spawning power your weapon spells last 2% longer'

upier · Dec 07, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

Upier admitted he uses a farmbot, or his little brother...

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

But stil max of 3 copies per spirit is enough which could be linked to SP. And a max of 8 spirits in total. That wouldn't cripple rangers or other proffs to use spirits.

Look at necros. Up to 10 additional guys raised from one skill.
3 spirits from one skill doesn't seem like a MM-replacement. It would be better then what we have now, but still miles behind the insanity that is the MM.
What could be interesting though is to simultaneously nerf MMs. That way spirits become comparable. That would be something I'd approve!

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

Or increase spirit level's
'for each 2 ranks of spawning power creatures you create (or animate) increases 1 level.'

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit
That's pretty much the current SP effect. Pretty much the only difference would be the higher spirit AL.

spirit of defeat · Dec 07, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Look at necros. Up to 10 additional guys raised from one skill.
3 spirits from one skill doesn't seem like a MM-replacement. It would be better then what we have now, but still miles behind the insanity that is the MM.
What could be interesting though is to simultaneously nerf MMs. That way spirits become comparable. That would be something I'd approve!

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit
That's pretty much the current SP effect. Pretty much the only difference would be the higher spirit AL.

Rit's are not MM replacements. you seem to forget that spirits can do more then minion's, minion's only attack. spirit's heal, protect, buf, debuf and even attack. I'm also talking about Nature rituals.
5x life is insane, it would be nerfed like hell. All those non attack spirit's would be changed. I don't like to see that.
Just raise Level for everything you create.
Higher AL means less damage, but sure you know that.